i think that entries featuring liveplay - that is, audio recordings of BotBrs playing real instruments - are valuable enough to be worth fostering with their own dedicated space. being a performance-focused format it would be a sort of 'sister format' to human voice, and in my wildest dreams they would get their own class. performist, anyone?

as someone who doesnt play any instrument i heavily approve of this

honestly this fills a great niche in the same way that vocal does. i hadn't considered it before but i'm totally down for it.

i think there should be a clear boundary on whether midi input liveplay (i.e. saved as midi notes and adjustable) is allowed or not, that would be my very first question. does something here have to be *only* audio recording of liveplay to qualify?

i don't think the new class distinction is super elegant, but a class for vocal + liveplay formats is not any more unique than photographist or writist, and those make sense enough. and mixist does feel a little off somehow

oh, one more q: how about jamming on any sort of VST or software with midi input (regardless of whether it's saved as midi)? where is the "real instrument" line, if that's the specific goal?

ex 1: i set up a sample instrument in OpenMPT and record myself jamming on the computer with it using either my midi keyboard or the typing keyboard.

ex 2: i record my midi keyboard itself, using only the patches that are stored on this specific keyboard.

ex 3: i record some other synth or midi instrument using its own software. drum machine; seaboard & friends; modular...

ex 4: i load up a VST of a really nice violin. (sampled? physical-modelled? does it matter?) i record myself playing it using my midi keyboard.

ex 5: i load up a VST of a physical-modelled piano and i record myself playing it using my midi keyboard (i.e. the same kind of instrument as is being heard).

which of these are liveplay? are they outside the scope of the format?

when this topic has come up in chat most present have been in favour of allowing midi 'recordings' and while i find myself feeling contrariwise i wouldn't care to put up a fight.

my main argument for 'against' is that it just seems wide open to rules-lawyering & edge-case boundary-pushing around what exactly counts as a digital input 'recording' and what counts as editing of one (e.g. quantisation). meanwhile "entries must feature a live audio recording" draws a much clearer line and a direct parallel with the human voice format. but, like i said, i'm not going to shout & throw tomatoes over it.

likewise regarding class - i think it would be nice if the twin performance formats got their own class, but it wouldn't be critical.

look at me getting the badge with bleepler solos only

YES YES YES love this idea it gives me an excuse to play my trumpet


re: dami's second comment:
I think the distinction here must be that instruments are recorded, not mixed externally. all sound would have to be created using physical instruments, not computers. in the case of midi keyboards, synths, and others, they would be allowed, but could not be mixed in with other instruments unless a second person is playing said instrument (meaning an entire band could, theoretically, perform something).

so, no putting instruments through a VST and changing the sound, or anything like that - only live instrument sounds. even if your midi keyboard is awful.

that being said, I suppose there's nothing STOPPING someone from just "oh hey, I can just record sound off my computer vst plugin with my phone and say it was me playing it", but I think it would be up to the honor system, so the same system which prevents hosts from premaking entries even though they already know bitpacks and the like.

either way, this is a great format idea and I would totally be down

i just wanna say, because i think my second post sneaked in while you were writing that, it's now incredibly funny that my annoying rules lawyer-y edge-case boundary-pushing questions precede your comment. and that makes me agree that "entries must feature a live audio recording" seems like a good starting point. although maybe the "liveplay a violin VST with a midi keyboard" one still feels like it'd be weird if it were the only thing included.

dami you sent your second post while i was still writing my reply to your first one, but i think the examples you provided do well to demonstrate what i was anticipating re. edge-case boundary-pushing.

"entry must feature an audio recording" is just so much easier to moderate. but i still feel like i'm in the minority - perhaps a minority of one - every time the topic comes up.

I love forums

hey, if the thread keeps getting bumped i'm a happy bunny.

okay but waddabout my Yamaha SHS-10 keytar? The FM patches on it sound like Aldi Brand genesis music and can't be edited. I'd need to midi record for it to sound good at all. Would it be legal to send midi through the keytar to a VST then record the output through an audio cable?

like i said i think it's purely up to the honor system. if that method requires actual live play I say go for it

hmmm what about making the song in the keyboard? I have a Casio CT-X5000, not really the greatest keyboard on earth. but it does come with a pretty neat midi recorder. Would it be allowed to like record a part of the song, switch to another instrument, and then play that one.

edit: I think retrokid already answered my question above lol

pay to win :(

i agree with arceus. not everyone has a piano or guitar lying around, and a computer keyboard only gets you so far.

adding onto the computer keyboard aspect, some of them don't even have proper anti-ghosting features, which limits the amount and combination of notes that can be played at once.

despite this, i am not opposed to the creation of the format! i think it can allow for some very interesting entries.

There is a slight accessibility issue with requiring real instruments, but otherwise I agree with roz that midi shouldn't count. I feel like part of the appeal of liveplay is that you have to work with raw audio instead of midi data.

It's also more accessible if you accept that anything can be an instrument. I'd argue that liveplay can include clapping, snapping, banging on pots and pans, whistling, singing, etc.

should the line then for midi instruments be drawn between "an audio recording of the part as played by you" and "midi data of a part played by you"? no midi data, only audio editing?

this leaves the door open for both acoustic and digital recording, and allows stuff like synths and drumpads and so on.

i hope whatever rules we decide on are succinct, but i'd also like to add something like "midi instruments should only use their own sound sets". i, at least, feel like there is a big distinction between 1) using my keyboard to play into any computer music software and 2) using my keyboard's on-board patches and other functions to play music live. the latter is treating it more like an instrument in its own right.

To add on to what i said before, does human voice alone count as liveplay? I guess it feels slightly weird for liveplay to include the vocal format, but that's not much different from wildchip including all chip formats

I agree with dami's idea of "an audio recording of the part as played by you" I'm biased because of my synthesizer but I see no reason why recording direct out from electronic instruments wouldn't count

too expensive

keyboard audio capture deserves love - i've used my casio toy keyboard

in entries like this one and this one. i don't see how it's strictly worse or less accessible than using a keyboard as a midi input device.

how would a physical drum machine or sequencer work here? does fiddling around with pre-written sequences on one of those during a recording count as liveplay? i suppose that also potentially opens up lsdj live stuff too

you've gotta actually be playing it live - that is, hitting the notes, not just pressing "play" on a pre-written sequence.

if you put down one long note to play a sliced breakbeat, and then spent the whole recording fiddling with effects and splicing the samples on the fly (like a drill and bass type thing), would that not count as playing since there's timing and stuff involved during the performance? sure, youre not necessarily inputting the "notes" that *start* the sample, but youre still controlling what part of the sample plays when and where, and thats not quantized. thats a lot more than just pressing play and letting it do its thing

@Arcane Toaster
I'm curious what others would say, but personally I'd allow it as long as there's an ample amount of human interaction with it. I'd say it's up to the voters to decide how much human they require

I think quantization should be banned from live play. It's completely against the spirit. But I don't think liveplay should be open to playing effects over a sample live, we already have remix and all gear, formats better suited to that. I think human voice should absolutely count. As for featuring an audio recording: good rule. People who don't have any physical instruments shouldn't be barred from participating (requiring stuff that's not freely available is a bit against the spirit of botb), but everyone's got a voice. And the people who don't have vocal cords can still drum on random stuff and record that.

finally an excuse to get a bass or a guitar. we need it

One thing I'm more curious is that the Human Voice format allows having acompaniment, including sequenced ones. Would something like playing a piano with a sequenced NES

in the back be allowed?

After reflecting upon this more, I am inclined to agree with Arceus. Pay2Win

imo it should be fine to accompany your liveplay with other sounds, it would be really restrictive on arrangement otherwise. much like with the vocal format, if voters feel there isn't enough featured, it can be downvoted. i could see the argument where all parts have to be liveplayed too, but i think it'd be most fun if it were open to sequenced accompaniments

re: the drumpad, i also think if there's a "substantial amount of human input" going on then it's in the spirit of the format. something i think would be ok - making a beat/loop from scratch and using the pad to layer on new parts. classic beat making workflow, liveplay input, and structural decisions on the fly. going ham on effects is *slightly* greyer of an area, but i think the example of screwing around with breakbeats live is also a fitting one

You can always set up OBS to record the audio from live playing into a tracker with your computer keyboard with a metronome going. You don't have velocity sensitivity of course, but it's still a method of live playing with no additional hardware or cost necessary... Assuming you have a computer keyboard. But come on, that's a pretty low bar. If you have a computer you pretty much need a keyboard.

I'll see if I can do a more formal write up on methods that only use freely available software later (e.g. voicemeeter, audacity, obs). If this does get adapted into a format, I'm more than happy to lyceum it up.

I assume any combination of things would be allowed as long as there is some instance of an instrument playing live in the song, similar to how vocal works.

I'd be curious to see how it would work for something like an EWI (Electronic Wind Instrument). For example, I could either play it and record the speaker output on the EWI, or plug it into my computer and record the output to MIDI in my DAW. Either way I'm picking up the instrument and playing it, but one is as a midi controller and one is by recording with a mic. Would both be acceptable since it's the same method of performing, or just the mic recording?

in a way i straddle both sides of this issue because i've submitted entries featuring keyboard hastily punched into DAW with minimal-to-no touching up as well as entries featuring live audio recordings made with the same keyboard, and while i don't think either is more valuable in an absolute sense, to me the latter is obviously more authentically liveplay than the former - if someone tried to tag one of my entries of the former type with 'liveplay' i'd politely correct them.

perhaps this reflects my taste in lo-fi music more broadly but i've been always been attracted to the less-polished style of studio and live recording, with all the little details that really put you in the room with the performer: the room ambience, the creaking stool, the thumping of the pedal, fret buzz, string sliding, AC hum, the sound of the performer's breathing, counting in, and so on...

all these add up to make a performance personal and human, which is what the concept of a 'liveplay' format is about to me - it's about capturing the performance, not just the notes. in much the same way, the "human voice" format is about celebration of, well, the human voice - which is why you can't just submit vocaloid to it.

i also stand fully by flaminglog's thesis that the whole world is an instrument - you can clap, tap, stomp, or shake anything.

regarding other accompaniments - yeah, same rules as human voice. "must feature liveplay" doesn't mean "must feature exclusively liveplay". this would also help people who don't have any instruments of their own, since they can always clap a beat over a track produced in a DAW or tracker.

@icrawfish
My problem with MIDI recording is that I feel like we'd need to set stricter regulations on the format in order to keep it feeling authentic (for instance "no quantizing").

However when it comes to live audio recordings I personally don't have an issue with doing some manual quantizing of the audio by stretching or cutting parts of it. Editing like that is pretty commonplace in music production, as well as doing things like recording many takes and stitching together the best parts of each, or using autotune for vocals (which as far as I'm aware is perfectly acceptable for the human voice format). It's up to the voter to decide how raw or "human" they want the liveplay. For me personally, I don't love the sound of autotune, and tend to vote it lower, but for most people it's an artistic choice and I think that's totally okay and valid. The issue is that once you do these things to MIDI it no longer feels much like liveplay in my opinion.

A more concrete example could be somebody liveplaying a breakbeat on a real drumset and then heavily chopping that up and editing it into some crazy breakcore thing. That feels like valid liveplay to me (although if someone believes differently I'm curious to hear), but if someone did that level of editing on a MIDI pattern they recorded using a drumset VST, the process would seem a lot more like regular DAW production than liveplay.

It would seem kind of silly to regulate what amount of editing is allowed on MIDI recordings vs audio recordings, so I think the simpler and better option would be to just not allow MIDI recording at all.

@Da Flarf
I really dislike this mindset. I don't think BotB is the type of community that would value perfect sound quality and expensive gear over raw creativity. I'd rather hear a creative use of a $10 slide whistle over a boring song using a $1000 synth.

Thinking you need to pay2win is what leads people to "Gear Acquisition Syndrome" and becoming that guy who spends thousands of dollars on the latest music tech because they think they need it to make a good track. I have friends who have fallen victim to this and spent thousands of dollars on getting the best instruments and recording setup before they had even finished writing a single song.

Maybe it sounds hypocritical for me to say you don't need expensive gear, as someone who has bought expensive gear, but all my proudest work has been done in free tracker software using the limitations of obsolete 80s game consoles. Chiptune is all about limitations, and I think this is a limitation-friendly artistic space.

liveplay rules proposal draft one! what do you all think of this as the scope for the format?

description: "Must feature an original audio recording (not MIDI data) of you performing on an instrument."

rules specifics:
- anything can be an instrument
- a substantial amount of human input should be involved in the performance
- your liveplay must be an audio recording, but adjusting/chopping the audio is OK. you cannot record and edit MIDI data.
- much like the vocal format, accompanying your liveplay with other parts is OK, sequenced or live

I'm with Prestune-- given that it's basically going to be impossible to draw any sort of line with MIDI editing/ quantizing, it's probably just smarter to ban it ("it" being midi recordings) altogether.

Does that make the format more restrictive? Yes it does, but as far as I see it.... oh well? A format lives and dies on its restrictions, the voice format "must feature original recordings of the human voice", so I see no reason why Liveplay WOULDNT be "must feature original recordings of instruments". In the first case it implies recordings = audio, so there's no reason for the newer format to be any different in the face of the "midi quantizing problem", for lack of a better term.

Also if this happens then Voice should move to "performist" along with liveplay

p.s (off-topic, but ill never have a time to mention it other than here, might do a full thread about it tbh): Why is samplist a class when there's only a single format for it?

@damifortune
I think it looks perfect tbh

amen to all that

Do you think everyone will be able to tell the difference between a live recording from a convincing VST work?

Absolutely-- the amount of work it'd take to make a convincing fake means it would never in a million years be worth it for an OHB-- even a 2HB or 4HB would prove hard. I'm a guitarist, specifically a Metal one, and I can absolutely tell if someone is using Shreddage, Ample Metal, etc.... and I trust that any instrumentalists would have a similar level of discernment

honestly, yeah. as much as i love midi input, i do think that explicitly requiring at least one audio recording (either mic'd or via audio interface) is enough of a restriction to give liveplay a distinct identity.

i'm sure it's possible to pull one over on even a discerning ear from time to time, yes.. but enough about this website already runs successfully on the honor system that i think this would not be a huge issue in practice

definitely pay to win. Has anybody here ever even seen a ukulele in person? Not in a museum? I haven't. (I dare not bring up guitars!) They're not cheap and simple to make, like a computer, for example, and so not everybody is just going to have one. And practice subscriptions nowadays? Ludicrous

that draft sounds good to me!

i wonder bogo supresame's opinion on the proposal

What is wrong with the allgear format if it's the most inclusive?

formats can be supersets of other formats: allgear vs vocal, nsf+ vs nsf vs nsfc, bytebeat vs bytebeat1k, s3xmodit vs the tinymod formats, etc etc...

the point of a more restricted format is to cultivate practice in a more specific area. sure, i could do an allgear battle with bitpacks requiring liveplay inclusion, but having its own format (and, ideally, class) encourages people to 'spec into' instrumental performance in particular - not just for one battle, but over time and throughout their creative work.

But the difference is that a liveplay format is budget-driven in its restriction.

A recurring argument I read in this thread is that it isn't because "the whole world is an instrument - you can clap, tap, snap, stomp, or shake anything".

Yet, do we sincerely think those are reasonable alternatives to compete against multi-instrumentalists?

If this format gets through, are we having a battle to decide what's gonna be the icon? that would be awesome

I can't compete against someone who knows how to make a functioning website game, program a tracker in bytebeat, use strange chips like the TIA or F channel, or programs like sunvox. Yes, sure, technically these are all free and with enough time I could learn these formats.

But with time I could also get really good at whistling or playing my hands like a flute, or using random objects to make noise. Yes, the whole world is an instrument, and even if you can't compete against a multi instrumentalist on day one, with practice eventually you can.

i think flaminglog's comment cuts to the heart of the issue, which is that the obstacle to participation isn't really money but time. one of my guitars - which i've used for many BotB entries - i picked up for £25 from a junk sale. throw in £10 for a fresh set of strings (although you can get em cheaper). the cost of getting value out of this instrument isn't the price of a modest restaurant meal for two, it's the hours upon hours of practice you have to invest before it's any use to you as a creative tool. but the need for practice and investment of time applies just as much to free tools.

furthermore, i don't think it's self-evident that BotBrs with more expensive gear would sweep liveplay battles. on the software side, it's already the case that some BotBrs use professional DAWs and expensive VSTs, while others make do with trackers and FOSS. this doesn't result in skewed battle outcomes because BotB voters recognise creativity and ingenuity, and value working within restrictions. if anything, you get brownie points for working with difficult or limited tools.

i think the same would apply to liveplay entries.

I'm also with Flaminglog here. It is true that I am in a favorable position as someone who started as an instrumentalist and owns several of them, but there are a lot of formats that I feel are currently "inaccessible" to me either because I haven't gone through the tutorials necessary to understand how to create with it, or because I am severely outclassed by other people participating in that format (I think we all know that being outclassed is no excuse to not join battles and grow, though).

Money and time go hand in hand. Yes, an instrument requires both money AND time for someone totally new to it, but there are plenty of formats that require a lot of time sink to wrap one's head around that is comparable to how much someone might invest monetarily in an instrument. NOT that I'm trying to justify money as a necessity, of course. But there's always going to be things where paying money makes it easier for something in certain formats to sound good, and this format just kind of brings that a bit more to the forefront of the vision.


That was a lot of probably excess yapping, but at the core of all of this is one simple thing: some people on BotB have instruments, and want a good excuse to play them more and do so with other people at the same time. Having a format for liveplay facilitates that niche, and so if people want the format and purchasing something isn't a hard requirement, I see no issue with the format.

@fortuna0800 we should totally have an icon battle sometime soon... perhaps two, one for liveplay *and* performist.

y-you really think it's gonna happen??? :00000

I think 56 posts in two days should be proof that there's enough interest in the format at least

I really hope it happens.

But can I liveplay the human voice?!?

yes!!!!

dami, for clarity's sake, that first bullet point should probably read: anything can be an instrument including the human body and voice

sorry, Caffeine dump incoming (no, not like that, you freak)

Maybe some misunderstanding between those who would compete in every possible format, and those who don't care? With myself being heavily in the latter camp. Random example, I'll never be a competitor at orgmaker; I just don't care about that. More points:

-There already exist formats based on PAID software- not pay to win, but pay to enter. Not that I think for a moment that most people heren't aren't pro-piracy, but??

-I know it's easy to forget nowadays, but computers are expensive; especially ones which happily run contemporary audio software. As a craptop user, I guess I could complain about "allgear" or "wildchip" being egregiously unfair, since I know there are botb'rs running software I can't f&ck with very much. Yes, anybody reading this is going to have some kind of access to computing, but I'll wager plenty of us have life priorities such that their music stuff is a bigger deal than their digital stuff; nothing to do with their earnings or anything necessarily

-On a related front; it's dead common for botb'rs to compete in a dead heat using wildly disparate software. This is one website on which you will FREQUENTLY find openMPT users besting wizards of Ableton 69 (or whatever it's up to) which is a VASTLY greater chasm technically than that between, for example, a starcaster and a 2019-limited-edition-chuck-berry's-7th-girlfriend-themed-jazzmaster

-And on a related front to THAT, (not to toot my own horn as a sidelight, but,) my recent career, if you could call it that, has basically been working in a custom-ish guitar factory, often to which many people with more money than sense will send amounts of cash you wouldn't believe for, you know, pretty good instruments. I'm not going to tell you it's absolute bullshit, but know that for many instruments, and ESPECIALLY electric guitars, the price/quality curve is SHARPLY logorithmic. Downright silly. Your starcaster, if well set up, WILL compete. Play clarinet? Better chops are free; better reed setup is basically free. Etc.

-This is basically a chiptune site- built on highly deprecated and in some cases rare hard-and-software. Yes, there is free software to allow you to prototype, emulate, pretend, whatever you want to call it, but let us not forget that at its core it's all about people interacting with objects that are old, arcane, rare, finicky, specialist- things that frankly a guitar, for example, actually is not

-For that matter, as a chiptune site, we have amongst us people who can find sincere beauty in ZX beeper tunes. Probably nobody here doesn't at least enjoy chiptune. The idea that that userbase is basically going to hear you instrumental tone before they hear your composition or skill is... way far out dad

-Nobody seems especially bothered by the "voice" format- but I would argue that "accessibility" is a MUCH more limiting factor than it could ever be as regards instruments- an instrument can at least BE acquired, whereas a voice is a part of you (of course both demand training- just like a tracker, or anything.) I'd also argue microphones have a much higher quality floor and steeper slope than guitars, for example, as far as price. And then, there are privacy concerns (I'm not an incorrigible privacy freak but I'm not thrilled about voice clips nowadays)

-Lastly, not as an argument really, I just am enjoying this bizarro jerry inversion of the usual obnoxious attitude I've been hearing from other musicians all my life, namely, that electronic music itself is pay-to-win bullshit and that all you have to do to win is pull a 2-hour "lofi beats to abuse adderal to" mixtape from your hat every several weeks. Of course, the humble working man without means plays (culturally approved-of) instruments. (also chamber musicians are fakers because they read, jazz cats are fakers because they have ""rules,"" rappers only have to know how to talk, and so on. Musicians seem to think other varieties of musician are cheating?)

nailed it like the 95 theses.

I also find the idea of instruments being more pay to win than computers very funny

I am personally very bad at live playing instruments, but I dig the concept and fully support the format!

Might be off topic but I'm honestly kind of confused on this site's stance on piracy. it seems kind of contradictory.

On the one hand we say "no piracy" but then we host yeah vidya weekly which is literally just "pirated samples: the battle". This seems like a contradiction to me. Can someone clear this up?

(edit) in reference to Stupe's post

piracy is a matter you take into your own hands, we are not endorsing it as a website. don't post links to pirated software or other sorts of copyrighted content. that's been a rule of almost any online community i've been a part of in 20+ years, nobody wants to put the site, the community or its administrator in any kind of jeopardy... but obviously what you do on your own time is your own business.

...as for SNES samples, most of them are already resamples of romplers, synths and sample cds of their era. (or actual popular music, if you're hip tanaka!) those guys (mostly) didn't own those sounds either. sure, it's a grey area, and you can figure your own personal stance out for how you wanna handle your own music, but as far as i'm concerned that ship sailed completely out to sea after Undertale if it hadn't left already

edit: i recalled a post by a-tiny-pony about this topic during the YEA VIDEOGAME major 3 years ago

I want to quickly note that instruments are way cheaper if you live in a first world country. But BotB is cosmopolitan.

That is a good point! And sorry I was a bit dismissive in my previous comment. I should clarify it's funny to me just because as Stupe pointed out, it feels backwards because it used to be that computer music was the "rich person's hobby", not the other way around. Not the case anymore as the cost of electronics has dropped and there's an abundance of free software.

It is definitely true that instruments and recording equipment can be quite expensive, sometimes prohibitively so. Still, I don't think that's a great argument to prevent it from becoming a format.

and computers aren't?

I'm curious about whether this is a moot point. Is there anyone on here who is both interested in competing in live play as a format, but who owns zero instruments of any kind?

computers at least do (lots of) other things, while instruments are fairly one-note (pun intended, i'm so sorry).

...your own voice is free, though, as is anything you have lying around in your possession. (edit: i also think my rules proposal allows for use of typing keyboard performances...)

i dunno, i understand that the accessibility of this format proposal isn't 100%, but i also feel it's not so prohibitive as to break its viability as something we can do here. despite the money issue i'm in agreement that the greater bottleneck is time, and in that respect it's like all other formats.

roz, my computer is cheap compared to what else is out there. It can't even handle 3DS-tier graphics. Yet that's what makes BotB as a hobby more accessible than current-gen gaming.

Flaminglog, if you believe the whole world is an instrument, then everyone can own one. But in a perfect world, everyone could own any.

damifortune, I think the greater bottleneck is money, not time. If you don't own an instrument, you can't even start practicing. So owning it has to come first. I can start practicing with renoise right now, but I can't start practicing with a cello.

It makes sense that people who already own an instrument desires this format. But its existence would result in an unprecedented limitation in accessibility. If most of you are ok with that, as it seems to be the case, then what else can I say?

you can sing; you can speak; you can beatbox; you can arrange cups or plates or cutlery and tap on them with a chopstick, and you can record all of it on even the world's worst phone/computer/webcam mic. you can even jam on a computer keyboard into audacity! none of these things cost you money, though obviously a cello or a saxophone does, and so i see the way in which you may not have "equal access" to the full range of the format. but this would be far from the only format where such equipment is usable by those who have it. crucially i also don't think this is an unprecedented limitation in accessibility when the human voice format is itself a subset of this proposed format. as i said, i realize accessibility is technically not at 100% here, but you really do need to come up with a lot of excuses to work your way down to total inability to participate.

you can use your computer keyboard to play a free software instrument and capture the audio output with a mic, meaning that if you own a computer (a prerequisite to participating on BotB) and a mic (already required, uncontroversially, for the vocal format) you have everything you need to participate.

EDIT: in fact as flaminglog already pointed out earlier in the thread, you don't even need a microphone for this as you can capture your computer's audio output using free software such as OBS, which would still constitute an original audio recording - so all you need to participate is a computer, nothing more.

i wldnt call me a multi instrumentalist but i have a piano, a few winds, and a trumpet lyin around. plus countless percussion...

AND I SUCK AT ALL OF THEM LMAO so if being able to participate and place well is of your concern tex, you'll be a-ok xP

Yeah what dami said I think locks it in: if human voice, a more restricted version of this format, is fine, than the broader version of all liveplay should have no issues. And if having better instruments gives people an "unfair" edge with the broader format, then you could extend that to allgear and just say whoever has the best everything has an unfair advantage in allgear, making allgear an unfair format; but that's not an advantage, that's just how the game is played.

Adding on to what @icrawfish is saying, this same equipment-cost advantage could be said to be true of photographist battles as well.

If you ask me, these types of subtle advantages and barriers-to-entry exist all over the site, in every single format, in one form or another. The kicker is these advantages aren't absolute-- they can and ARE regularly overcome.

breaking: the format icon battle is live tomorrow!!

Some of you are explaining how liveplay can be accessible. And that's admirable. It's just that it's not how I'd imagine myself experiencing it.

and i understand that, i think - the alternative suggestions, aside from perhaps human voice, are certainly not what anyone would first think of as a "traditional" way to tackle a liveplay format. you know, not keys, not a wind instrument or a stringed instrument, etc.

but if we're talking about format accessibility, i'd like to think that such alternatives (again especially human voice) do well to address the ability for as many people to dip their toes in as possible. we've done our best to be inclusive, i hope. do you mean something else by "accessibility" here? i think we've been responding under the assumption we're talking "ability for all botbrs to freely participate should they desire", but if we're just speaking more generally, i do see how this poses a fairly unique new restriction (besides human voice) as a format... asking you to prooobably get physical in some way.

I'm curious how modular synths would fit into this... If I record myself messing around in Bespoke (knob twiddling, using arpeggiators etc.), would that count as liveplay? I'm asking because even though it's definitely a live performance using an instrument, there can be quite a lot of automation involved.

surfcroc, personally i think that kind of thing should be up to voters to judge. it's not just modular synth - there are guitar pedals that can introduce a lot of automation with delay, arpeggiation, and other effects, to the extent that you're "playing" the pedal as much as the guitar. i'd expect that an entry which consisted of a BotBr taking a snippet they've played on guitar and transforming it with a pedal would be accepted by voters, so i don't see why they shouldn't accept analogous operation of a modular synth. as long as you're pressing some buttons or moving some knobs while it's running, not just hitting record and letting the synth "play itself", i think you should be considered to be performing. once again, the honour system rules, and if the voters think you're taking the piss they'll punish you.

tex, i know how it feels to be in the minority about something you care about - that's how i felt about this topic before starting this thread. i really respect you standing your ground and making your case, and i think your concerns about the format breaking from norms around accessibility are grounded. i've made sure to define the format such that it will be possible to participate with nothing more than your own computer if that's all you have.

i hope we'll see a submission from you in the icon battle!

I can't read all of the comments but I'm basically going to just add to the idea that this format is as restrictive as the "record a sound outside" "take a picture" and allgear, but insofar as the disparity between gear accessibility doesn't equate creative or compositional advantage. I've heard plenty of high production value or technically proficient music that I would not choose to listen to nor vote highly on. My first electronic band was made recording stuff on my desk as instruments and textures with the built in mic on my computer, and something well executed in this regard to me would be more interesting to me than Epic Live Guitar Shred or piano noodling or whatever. I think not using only or primarily traditional instruments would actually teach people stuff they wouldn't expect, as would more time spent on the instruments they do own.. This is where I support it.

Seems like the format is already on its way but I want to voice my opposition too:
I'm sure it's been covered, but given that this website is a game, we have to be realistic about what qualifies as a liveplay and consider the reality of how easily this format could be cheated in, especially with increasingly realistic softsynths. Maybe you or I could likely detect a fake guitar, but maybe others wont. Additionally, most recordings as we know them arent just one continuous take per instrument, and frankly as someone with some studio experience I'd say that would be a very frustrating and unfun restriction. So how much of it has to be played live consecutively, or is it truly a free for all? What level of editing is permissable, regarding speeding up slowing down, punch-ins, or cut and paste editing.
I think it also creates a grey area regarding live electronics, we need very defined lines for the sake of The Game.



Perhaps a helpful alternative to "liveplay" could be to think of it or call it "live tracking" or something else (I lost the name I actually liked). This would be if the idea is that its open-ended enough to allow for sequencing of recorded audio, otherwise we have to really define what constitutes a "live" play and how much of the song must be performed by someone physically in the real world with their bodies and what's allowed wrt editing.


I hope I'm making sense, I probably wont actually enjoy this as a format despite being an instrumentalist/live electronics person/vocalist, but I do want it to be an understandable playing field and I'll probably try to badge it if we go forward.

How can one even prove that something was played live or not?

I made this deliberately crappy piano solo cover of the Mario theme several years ago.

Everyone guessed it was played live even though it totally wasn't.

I might have more to say about this later (the short version: I have slight misgivings about a couple of things on principle but I think the idea is fine), but for the moment I'd be curious to hear from people who are excited about this format: what sorts of bitpacks do you think this format might have?

can't wait for this format to start having xhbs, this is gonna be fun! might have to break out my DX reface and trumpet :)

@Tex
Unfortunately we just have to rely on the integrity of BotBrs and hope they don't cheat, but like Dami said that's already how this site functions. We have to trust that BotBrs don't submit entries to xhbs that they've been working on for much longer, and we also have to trust that people won't use genAI (there aren't perfect tools for identifying generative content, and AI will keep getting better). I agree that it would be nice if we could verify these things but this isn't an unprecedented issue and we'll find ways to deal with problems when they arise.

@Lasertooth
I think any bitpack that currently works for allgear could be used for liveplay. Idk if I personally will be hosting too many of these, since I tend to prefer making limitation-based bitpacks (which only work on an even playing field) rather than vibe-based bitpacks, but that's already how I feel about hosting wildchip or allgear. Mostly I'm excited to see liveplay in major battles.

something specific that i think would be fun would be to encourage different kinds of interaction with your instrument, whatever it may be, like extended/alternative techniques of making sound. also incorporating some specific motif or other compositional technique within the entry. improvisation in general is also something i'd love to encourage. tbh, i will probably host all of those things. but even just vibes-based prompts like many of the other formats would work fine too i think

edit: oh, a restriction about supplying a specific aspect of the arrangement on your instrument would be fun... a small series could be done with this

I could probbaly dig up some books that have lists of prompts for writing or practicing exercises, they'd probably work well. Composition ones especially are just vague enough, like "alternating staccato/legato sections" or new age wackiness like "write something brittle and clean"

"Play only with your feet"

is my table an instrument

hi! i added some very basics to the article for this format liveplay (format), however seeing as i wasn't here to discuss the format and only saw things in passing, i highly encourage double checking and expanding if necessary

Food for thought: a nested format that could be either "strict" or "microphone" liveplay, or to go the other direction, "electronic" or "machine" liveplay... either would be to live play what .mod or tinymod is to s3xm0d1t... some would read this as being exclusionary, but I think of it as the opposite, since either one would affirm that there is a place for dj, drum machine jamming, time-based synth patches, etc. In fact I had this idea cuz I thought of playing some electric organ jamming with the rhythm section on a la napolean dynamite soundtrack but it feels like maybe pushing it... again just food for thought really

This idea is doomed, it will never take off, never be made into a format!! Foolishness! Rubbish! 🗑️🎵

this idea is so cool i wish it was real

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liveplay is a cool format i wish instruments were real