Strobe and I were discussing this on #botb a while back, but we never came to a conclusion...
So here's the deal! The Atari XL Pokey chip is apparently not natively capable of a "stereo mode", and this so-called "mode" actually refers to a hack that piggybacks two Pokey chips on top of each other, and directs the output of each chip to one speaker, thus doubling the amount of available channels in the process. This is, as far as I know, the only supported hack on BotB. This brings up a few questions...
1) Should we continue to support the Pokey hack, or only accept natively legit mono .SAPs?
2) If so, why not support other similar hacks, such as the stereo SID hack or the stereo NES hack?
3) If we do decide to support hacks, where is the line drawn for something too deviated from the original sound to be acceptable?

I had no idea about any of this hack stuff. Maybe we should have a separate hack compo. But I don't think multi-chip hacks should be viable formats in typical chip compos. Best to keep things simple. I mean, if people are dedicated to writing music for a chip then limiting it to what was commercially available seems like a good idea. Of course, then, s3xmodit format might come under question too....

lol cocks

1 =o dunno, on one hand players should use whatever they feel like. Players support it, hardware doesn't (without modifications (?))
2 You've got a point there. Though what Stereo NES hack do you speak of? Notsofatso's stereo separation|similation is done by *hardware. NES produces mono sound, I think.
3 =o

edit: meant to say *SOFTWARE

puke7: s3xmodit are only PC formats, aren't they? Aside from .MOD, I know that supposedly plays by strict Amiga rules...but .S3X, .IT and .XM etc. were never really designed with a specific sound chip in mind, were they?

anewuser: The stereo NES hack doesn't double the channels as far as I know, simply makes each channel pan a different way. I heard about it here: http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/nes_mod/nes_mod_en.php

hey kulor, you know, stereo is a lie ;)

for a second i thought you meant an nsf stereo hack: like coding/tracking in stereo... =)

good question though, comes down to the personal ethics of each as to the authenticity of composing for 20 year old chips.
a lot of people are doing fantastic chip music which would never play in a real console. But the tracks are still awesome...

maybe a new category for ''mutants''?
everything in mp3 format only, like for GB?
like cross-chip tracks, stereo hacks, 20 channel ''2a03'' etc.
but this might also get quite messy quickly...

that does not appeal to me..

Just my 2 cents:

hacks usually have unfair advantage over tracks that follow the rules of original hw. If they are generally allowed, we could just as well remove the gategorization as it becomes somewhat pointless.. Why not then just as well jump one more step ahead and start doing our chipmusic using modern tools, bunch of VSTs & effects. Now what would be the fun of that ;)

IMO limitations are the salt of making chipmusic: how to create kickass music using only limited features. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

If we want to support hacks, a totally separate compo might be the place: an allgear chip compo, where _everything_ goes.

Excuse my n00bity, but i did think that SAP was 8 channeled supported natively.
and im sure puke7 thought that aswell, thats why it has been supported in all current chipcompos.
if this is proven to be a total hack it will ofcourse be removed. depending on which circumstances the hack must be in order to function.

If its possible without much work to have it working on real hardware it should be supported ofcourse.

kulor: ah! http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/nes_mod/nes_mod_en.php#stereo

I say let's not allow it, then. The NES simply didn't have Stereo sound out of the box (enabled at least). Compositions should be fully compliant to what COMPOSERS had at the time (this hacks are cheating!!) Some formats will lose BIG TIME, others as nsf compositions won't.

Maybe we should allow this 'mutant compos' ???!!! O_O Actually we should have 'PURITY compos" (we've been doing mutant compos all along) I mean, fully compliant hardware compositions. NO HACKS of any kind allowed but what composes had|used back then.

Thoughts?
PS1: I did think the sap allowed 8 mono channels and 4 stereo ones at the time...
ps2: if you happen to read this thread, raise your thoughts on the subject, please...

EDIT: Just to clear things up, I'm referring to 8-channel and stereo mode as the same thing. Likewise for 4-channel and mono mode.

Strobe: Sorry if you thought I misrepresented your side or anything. Either by poor translation or deliberate deception (for some reason?), Raster Atari Tracker had us all tricked more than likely. I didn't know until I did some research myself, and I'm still somewhat unsure honestly.
Since I never presented it here, this is what lends me to believe "stereo mode" does not exist:

-On either a real Atari XL or an emulator, the SOUND x,x,x,x BASIC command lets you play sound. I'm a bit sketchy on which number is what, but there's one for waveform, frequency, channel and volume. The value for channel can only be set from 0-3, otherwise the statement throws error #3: "A value is outside its expected range"

-I have never seen an Atari publication refer to a "stereo mode" for the Pokey chip. However, I have seen specific claims to it having four voices:
[http://www.atariarchives.org/mmm/timers.php] (Master Memory Map)
[http://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chapt07.php#H7_2] (De Re Atari)

-Raster has an option to export .XEX files for use on an Atari or Atari emulator. Try playing a stereo .SAP in Atari800Win, and only half of the channels play. There is an option to turn on stereo mode...but look at what it says down at the bottom when you highlight this option: "Enable emulation of two Pokey processors"

-All classic .SAPs, to my knowledge, are mono.

All this said, it's pretty reasonable to assume that a single Pokey isn't capable of 8-channel or stereo sound. However, Strobe brought up an excellent point: It may be possible that an extra sound chip was included on some cartridges. Even if it was never actually utilized, a good case could be made for it if it was found that the Atari 5200/XL systems would have supported this.

My ethical stance on the subject, even though I'm well into tl;dr territory...I've never much been a fan of pseudo-chiptunes (those made in Fruityloops or without any regard to the limitations of the target sound chip) because they cheapen the real chiptunes and the effort taken to adhere to those strict limitations. Hacks are the same sort of thing to me. Part of the reason I got into this stuff (the other part that isn't pure love for the sound) is because the tools are all totally free and usually very easy to get the absolute best possible sound out of within minutes of use. I hated how "normal" music communities were segregated by those who could afford/were willing to pirate $40,000 Studio Deluxe and those who couldn't/weren't. Same with how oftentimes great compositions would go completely ignored because someone with more technical knowledge about some program (or even just a more expensive program) was able to get a more realistic sound out of it.

I know it's been quite a while since this thread has been abandoned, but I'd like to clear up things a bit regarding Atari & POKEY & stereo. The stock Ataris of all lines (original/XL/XE) only have a single POKEY chip, which is obviously mono. The stereo modification is a hardware hack that adds a second POKEY to the machine. Although it is not official, it is quite heavily spread in the european scene, I think at least every other scener has a stereo upgrade built-in in their Atari. Many Atari scene productions since the second half of the nineties support stereo.

Hah! this makes me think if what was done to nsf music (2a03 and 2a03plus) should be considered for other formats that have extra extension/hacks/modes/features(and allll other hackery hardware and not hardware compatible) as well? =o

anewuser: Well, if we did it would have to be a hack-compo or something, because since this discussion, SAP entries into compos have been limited to mono/4-channel only.
Of course I'm not an authority figure on these things, and that's subject to change by whomever's discretion with the next compo.
But I still stand by that hacks should not stand for anything but a wildcard category, even if the file format happens to support them.

[This n00b ashamed of what written. - BotB]