either that or someone show me a setup where you can play back furnace files on a real Atari, that wld also work

i think there's a small argument for it in sapx2 specifically because that's already a hardware hack, but at least it is hackable, as i understand it? i'm not an expert, but if there's a franken-setup that can do it, then that's good enough for me to prefer excluding fur... and admittedly i don't feel super strongly about the argument for it

definitely think it doesn't make sense in regular sap either way

it might be best to leave it for the current major though since some people may have already started working on something believing fur to be a legal type (bc it currently is)

I know that zlew had a setup to render double pokey saps

someone that could code 6502 assembly (or compiled from c or whatever) for atari 400/800/etc. computers can easily play .vgm files from there (i know this because playing ym2413 .vgm on japanese sms, or sn76489 .vgm on colecovision isnt that difficult, i wonder how would it be on 6502 atari computers) - seeing that furnace can export to .vgm, i struggle to realize where the problem is... - so, seems that .vgm format could be accepted instead?

if that existed, sure, but i don't think it makes sense to operate on hypotheticals

if i wasnt that terrible on 6502 asm i could code it easily because .vgm is a really simple format - i really wonder why no one coded it yet

there are some aym furnace entries i wish i could play on hardware too

It sucks but I don't like playing the "hypothetically possible" game. It probably shouldn't be allowed

IF YOU DONT TRACK ON NATIVE YOU A BITCH STRAIGHT UP

man stfu some people don’t like having to download 50+ different programs to make music

i get that but it's inconsistent to have one format that doesn't require you to submit something hardware playable. the focus of basically all our chiptune formats is "the allowed filetypes are playable on hardware somehow"

retrokid I'm pretty sure that's the purpose of this website hahaha. it's ok to stick to a few formats you like

yeah ik but it is nice to be able to participate in multiple formats but only have one program

in German we have a term for this. it's "Eierlegende Wollmilchsau", describing a one-in-all tool or device which is suitable for every purpose and situation. the term literally means "egg laying wool milk pig", which is obviously non-existent and will never exist.

formats and different tools exist because their strength lies in different areas and trying to fit them all into one tool will result in a mediocre execution for all their purposes or a complete lack of certain features.

in this case, furnace lacks the ability to hardware export.

and even if it will eventually become the powerhouse it is meant to be (in which case you can simply export sap from furnace I assume), there will still be other formats on here which will require a different toolset, because that's simply how it works.

we aren't "just making music" here after all. and in case we do, we have allgear wildchip fakebit vocal, all that kind of stuffs. you can already participate in these multiple formats without ever changing your tool.

but Chiptunes (or at least the botb formats targeting chips, software or filetypes) are more than just "making music". they are about controlling a certain limited "thing", let that be a piece of hardware or a piece of code someone else wrote. understanding and approaching this thing in the correct way is crucial in order to succeed with ur entry for the format.

learning new tools and ways to approach the crafting of art is a key element of the botb formats.
if you're upset because not every format on botb accepts the same file format, maybe youre looking for a different place

i think that "converters" (embedders) could replace hardware export somehow in the meantime - a rom template concatenated with a .vgm file (and maybe extended or trimmed to predefined file sizes (like multiple of 8kb/16kb and etc.) as needed from some emulators) would do the work, since the used chips in the .vgm file are compatible with the "system" template (because their registers and values)

and i also think we are not in the wrong place - we (or some of us) somehow are trying to use the tools to their limits, and having some relevant influence (directly or indirectly) on the development of most of the tools used here

@YQN you mean ay .vgm being played on atari-st? wouldn't surprise me being possible and easy to do that on stos, for example...

I'm going to half-disagree with kleeder's latest post, in the sense that "learning a new tool" is a necessary evil, rather than a desired property, of making chiptunes. YMMV, but the interesting challenge is working within the limitations (i.e. crafting a hardware-renderable track), and if I can comfortably achieve that _without_ switching tools, it's going to be way more fun to me.


BUT, two "counterpoints" of sorts:

- It's obviously not realistic for a single tool to be able to handle everything well -- e.g. Schism can do spc well with SNESMOD, but e.g. hypothetically trying to shove, say, zxbeep support into a Schism fork is probably not a good fit. So I definitely agree with that point in the general sense.

- For Furnace in particular, IMO the salient point here is already made in the OP: at time of writing, it's missing hardware export, which I do agree ought to disqualify it (for now) -- the definition for proper chip formats is "can it play back on hardware?" where possible, and sap/sapx2 is pretty clear-cut. Unless there's some easily-viable conversion pipeline, but even then the output format would be something other than .fur anyway :P


DOUBLE-BUT, the fact that Furnace can't do Format X _yet_ doesn't mean it'll be stuck that way forever, or that it'll be a poor fit if it arrives. The ball's in their court, and maybe they'll knock it out of the park. Folks seem pretty thrilled with it so far compared to previous "multitool" attempts (defle, etc.)

I mainly just don't want to see folks going "well you can use tool Y instead" as some sort of excuse for why Multipurpose Tool X should _not_ support a thing. If it can do it well, then hell yes to multi-purpose tools, and if it sucks at it... well, _then_ we'll use something else. :P

probably the problem is not about learning new tools (which is actually an exciting and recommendable experience!), but about the available tools totally sucks... - one excellent example is deflemask battle format, thanks god that furnace tracker appeared, so we can use a minimally decent tool for submitting entries in this format (even considering we need to test these entries on deflemask first... xD)

anyway, whatever conveters (some of them made by us? - from one format to another, in this case) that would help us on interoperation would mostly help us all from the pain of using terribly unfeatured and unusable tools

(meanwhile i'm still delaying the development of my very humble famitracker-to-ntrq converter, and furnace-to-ntrq as well...)

I have maybe solved part of the problem: https://gitlab.com/funute/a8vgm2sapr

The idea is fur -> vgm -> sapr(s) -> obx/sap. This script takes care of (most of) vgm -> sapr, with some caveats. Furnace obviously takes care of fur -> vgm. sapr -> obx is done by another set of existing tools.

There's other stuff that isn't handled which is listed in the repo, so it's not a complete solution yet, but for sap it's like 90% there and for sapx2 it's like halfway there? It's at least now a lot less of a stretch of the imagination to consider Furnace hardware compatible - the rest is left as an exercise for the reader, etc. etc.

this is awesome.
BUT it also means that instead of allowing .fur and .vgm for the format, only allowing .sap makes even more sense because you can create that format by following the converter chain :D

@nitrofurano: i don't know what's inside a .vgm but if it's just a dump of register states it should be rather easily doable to code a .vgm player

@YQN it is indeed!

(talking about furnace, tildearrow is asking for testers at discord - .s3m import added recently, and soon we will have .it and .xm import as well!)

kleeder: agreed, same reason why .ftm et al are not accepted for nsf formats. Though since the full conversion chain isn't ready yet, maybe not for now?

YQN: saprtools has a vgm2ym tool inside, and I assume there's a native .ym player for ST.

@funute thx for the info! i'm not aware of a ym player for atari st but i know there's an assembly tutorial somewhere on how to play them

please let this happen now.
fur should not be allowed in sap and sapx2.
summer chip entry period is over. the current submissions should be voted on as all-legal, but upcoming battles should not feature a non-hardware compatible format for a hardware-format.

raster music tracker rules and learning new single-purpose tools rules

that's my contribution

i'll try to upload hardware renders of aym vgm tracks on my youtube channel in the next few days if i manage to convert vgm to ym. time to test my new soundcard and camera!

edit: i don't think i can leanr how to compile vgm2ym in just a couple of days... has anyone got a windows executable?

edit: coding a vgm player for atari st instead, it's just simpler

agreeing with syntheticgoddess here. furnace isn't really that great for this format anyway. it only outputs .vgm files which don't have a native playback option for the atari 8-bit - the closest is one that plays sn7 tracks

for the 800 and up , but that's about it. even so i'm surprised people forwent the vgm export and submitted the furnace module

@big_lumby great find!!! (specially considering that pokey and sn7 chips aren't technically that different each other, besides frequency precision for tones)

i'm sure if you hack it enough you can probably get it to play pokey vgms fine on it - hell, there's even a program linked on the page i linked called vgm2atr, which converts .vgm's to .xex's (for execution on an atari) and .sap's (for sap players). dunno if it works on pokey vgms and i don't have the time to test it out but my best guess is probably not. feel free to correct any of the stuff i'm saying here

vgm2atr works on SMS/SN76489 .vgms, I don't remember it working on POKEY .vgms /shrug

seems developed before pokey getting supported from vgm format (sn was the very first chip supported, wasn't it?) - would be cool if vgm2atr developer could be contacted, for implementing pokey support on it, or share its source - but anyway, having such tool available as it is isn't that bad at all (in the context it's far better than nothing)

fur shld not be allowed in sap / sapx2

Hint for an upcoming advent format? :p But yeah, considering all the things well discussed above -- I agree!

it shouldnt make it on the advent list if the filetypes arent sorted

balls, now i have to install another program :(

i want to install another program because placing notes on a ancient console is awesome :)

I just wanna say, I'm glad BotB is the kind of place where people try to continually improve and make up for past poor decisions. It creates a very positive atmosphere.

Anyway what I'm saying is fur shouldn't be allowed

BAN, BAN, BAN, BAN, BAN, BAN, BAN!

was about to reply to @YQN about MSX probably being able to play AYM VGMs¹ but I saw on their channel there's been progress on the vgm player for AST, super cool https://youtu.be/swcw3QfDB_U

¹ I think it can't handle PCM, as well as the expected clock differences and no stereo

can we please disallow .fur in sap and sapx2?

no!!! xD

i would make the change with our overlord's blessing, but otherwise it is not my place to do so

.FUR AT ALL COSTS

500 ailments

interoperation saves everything (deflemask and renoise included! xD )

.fur has been removed from the sap and sapx2 formats

just found out that if you use a unstable build of furnace then get a rom export from that you can have a playable .xex if you use the convert sap to exe option in tools on altirra, not exactly sure how well it works but i got something to play from it (nvm everything seems to be accurate, fucked around with macros and effects for a bit)

also pretty sure submitting a sap directly from furnace would be illegal cuz it doesn't play in asap, converted to xex should be legal however since it does work in a emulator.

rip furnacers

might make a video tutorial for the thing i mentioned before if there's enough interest lol