So there was a bit of discussion over a master system entry for WCX this year (as opposed to the festive WCX last year).
A fair amount of opinions were shared here http://battleofthebits.com/arena/Entry/River+Country+%28JP%29/16727/

But I think this is still an unfinished discussion. Should YM2413 be allowed for the SMS category? Should stereo GameGear entries be allowed? Should an SMS+ category be made? What about other machines which used the SN76489 or clones? (including those because of important (to our ears anyway) differences in the psuedorandom noise pattern)

It'd be great to hear the input of the admins and the relevant lyceum article updated to either explicitly allow or disallow such entries.

Have at it
[rabble rabble rabble]

my personal opinion is that sms should mean psg, stereo or mono. but a "psg" format name might be a little vague.

well hey, just because no one's done it before doesn't mean no one should

i fail to see any reason not to have non psg-sms stuff. it's still legit master system music, same with having expansion audio still being legitimate famicom music

if the system can do it, why not, y'know

if you really gotta be anally retentive you could have sms+ like we have nsf and nsf+ but if you're gonna do that you may as well just have a general vgm format as well


and honestly

"It's not a PSG category, it's an SMS category. I hope people don't penalize for FM."

i agree with this 100%

my only complaint (a (very) minor one tho) with the sms+ format is that it would be something that one can only do via mml while almost every other format (except channelf) has multiple ways of doing stuff

i think allowing it on standard sms format is good enough but thats just me

also +1 for general vgm format

see, since vgm supports multiple chips and multiple of the same chips it'd be a very good format to have, but it has restrictions in that it'd be very hard to make use of it for things like 2A03, QSound or things like that

but you could have a billion YM2612s

Because the uptake for sms entries is pretty minimal in comparison to other formats, I dont think theres a need to compartmentalise somthing that is already very small, and opll should either just be allowed or not allowed. I see the need for nsf and nsf+, on the basis that we have a sizeable amount of contributors to each, and this is kind of on the back of what irrlicht was proposing for a daw/tracker split for wildchip - a split where there is a need to.

Well, I stated&explained my opinion before, so just a quick repeater:
In my opinion, letting FM compete against what is arguably one of the most limited sound chips around = bullshit. Excuse my language, but to me it absolutely does not make sense to allow YM2413 in SMS.
Regarding stereo and SN clones, that's fine with me, as that merely depends on the player/settings. Same with AY, you can play it back stereo or mono or even using YMs. That's the choice of whoever listens to it, basically.

I'd say that using stereo in SMS is cheating, however, since the Master System can't do it - the Game Gear can. It can however do OPLL FM, and if you put the time and effort in to use such a chip, I fail to see why it shouldn't be used in a category it fully deserves to be in. It's a Master System category, not a PSG category.

i'm not sure how popular smsjp/sms+ would be outside of majors (that goes for a lot of other formats too though....) and i think a general vgm format would probably be better

[edit:adding more wood to the fire]
imo going out of one's way to use the less popular parts of a console's sound system is very much akin to those who would use a custom sound engine in other formats, including features not a part of the hardware, but WITCHCRAFT to get extra features in software. To speak of "It's simply unfair to pitch this against pure PSG entries. " which I would argue is the same unfairness to those using conventional tools.

In many ways I still stand with the lack of foresight in having called the category SMS and go with "don't hate the playa, hate the game 8) "

[edit2: moved original post to bottom for better flow]

One possibility that may appease many (though I would be saddened that it won't include FM) is to rename the category as SN. This makes it clear what chip is and is not allowed. Though it leaves one less system/console category. It's also more clear than calling it a PSG category and including AY/YM (and 2A03 and POKEY and TIA and the commodore kids and everything else that is technically a PSG)


Though I'd personally like to get to work with both SN and OPLL in the same category, this proposal would mean it'd have to go into wildchip and I'd also have one less wildchip to enter (which I could otherwise fill with even more obscure mml formats ;) ). But I suppose that's the price of compromise

DalekSam, I'm starting to see your point. So, in response, my argument is that SMS should be a PSG category. That using the FM requires a lot of work is besides the point. If it were allowed in SMS in the future, chances are that new, easier-to-use tools would pop up eventually. And then nobody would use pure SN anymore, because well, it's sound capabilities suck by comparison.

DoctorGentleman, I think that would be a very good compromise and I'm glad you bring it up. Additionally, maybe a general purpose VGM format would lessen the pain of "wasting" your wildchip entry.

I can sorta see where you're coming from but my argument against that for that would be the VRC7 chip for the Famicom (which, topically, is a clone of the YM2413). Pure 2A03 is far more popular than VRC7 music for the simple part of it being far more restrictive. There's fun in working in tight restrictions, much like there's fun in breaking them.

When it comes to the Mega Drive category, the FM sound is more nostalgic than the SN sound, but by no means is the SN part of the Mega Drive underutilized. If the YM2413 was more accessable for musicians I'd think we'd see a rise in the popularity of the chip and more openness to those wanting to try out a new sound - and more particularly, combining it with the nostalgic sound of a system.

By all means, though, I'd happily oblige with changing it to an SN category and having a VGM format for letting your hair down with the possibilities the VGM spec now allows. In short, here's what I propose:

SMS - General Master System category. SN/OPLL.
SN - Master System, Game Gear and Mega Drive SN only, i.e SMS as it is now
VGM - RA2A03, YM2612, YM2151, YM2413, Mega CD, 32X PWM, QSound, so on and so forth, any combination, any number of chips.

Ok, I did my reading and I'll try to participate in this conversation on as many subjects as I can --

First, as far as the chip formats go, I'd like to keep them console centric rather than chip based. I personally have an objection to a VGM format based on these grounds. Perhaps we could change the AYM format to simply AY (since the YM portion of it is more or less an AY clone) and create a YM(FM) format that covers the Yamaha FM chips found in various arcade and pinball machines.

(if what I read was correct...) SMS in Japan has the YM FM chip, but the USA version didn't have this. While making an SMS+ category (including stereo) could be technically correct in this situation maybe SMSj would be better? I have no experience with SMS outside of MOD2PSG and it clearly doesn't support the FM chip. So I'm on the fence about this business. Like someone said, maybe it could help inspire new tools. Also, if only Game Gear had the stereo option then SMS should be restricted to mono.

Why didn't SEGA give the Master System a separate name for the States like they did for the MegaDrive/Genesis?

I think I've played less than a few hours of Master System in my life. I couldn't even tell you what it sounded like. Maybe it's time I tested that thing I was told about being able to play Master System cartridges in a Genesis (i have a few of them).

"SN - Master System, Game Gear and Mega Drive SN only, i.e SMS as it is now" --- I didn't even know this was going on... SMS should be Master System only as implied by it's name.

If Gameboy wasn't so different from NES then it wouldn't have its own format. Game Gear having stereo as an option isn't a convincing reason to give it a format -- especially given all the debacle surrounding .MOD hard panning.

I'm not trying to set anything in stone, but my gut says ==
SMS - SN only
SMS+ - SN/OPLL/stereo
YMFM - any single Yamaha FM chip
VGM - maybe, but not with such a simple name; maybe if it was part of a wildchip-esque format or maybe a wildVGM-esque name
WildChip was originally meant to be combining chips with each other or with live instruments not the hi-fi non-8bit poop crap we mostly get these days

...again nothing in stone, but this is the way I'm leaning

i do not support the name wildVGM it should be WildVGM or wild_vgm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't mean instead of wildVGM you wish it was VideoGameMusic format?

So with that being the history of the intention of the wildchip category, was there any consideration for where obscure *purist* chip formats go? I don't think I'm alone in thinking that THIS was the purpose of wildchip. And sectioning off such a designation would certainly settle the wildchip debate (save for the part where we all mimic the monthly c.mo WHAT IS CHIP??????? thread)

[edit: ym]
Oh, one more thing to consider, puke. A YMFM category is pretty much a superset of adlib.

YMFM_not_AdLib format

This is all going over my head but I am all up for a Wild Video Game Music format!!!!!!!

Oh wait, isn't that what botb is all about anyways ;P

I talked about this years earlier...

Why not just SMS = PSG+FM and GG = PSG (with or without stereo)

Super simple. Done.

I dunno if this is really relevant/whatnot, but I've never paid a bit of attention to the SMS category because PSG-only sounds hella "bleh." Expanding its scope would make it listen-worthy, personally. P:

Hmm, it's the total opposite for me. Yes, the SN obviously sounds crap but that's what makes it so interesting. (And ultimately the SN has unique sound characteristics that no other chip offers). Expanding it's scope would make the SMS category less interesting for me. I actually mostly by-passed SGEN this year, mostly because of time constraints but also because I'm not that much into FM.

OK. Since SMS (PSG+FM) is now available as a format for VGM/SMS/SGC, we can move forward with this and not just dream about it.

Now, for all intents and purposes the current "SMS" music that we have now could be renamed as "GG" music. The SMS "S" icon could be swapped out for a "G" icon with Sega aesthetic. Then perhaps BotB could go through a small maintenance period cron job that renames all SMS references to GG.

Then the new SMS format could be opened allowing for SMS (PSG+FM) for Summer Chip. :)

What's the word?

Another compo, another sms category allowed. But still no clarification on the rules

Perhaps even a simpler solution:

All the SMS and GG tunes that are PSG should remain with the "S" category with the 8-bit color aesthetic.

Make a new category "FM" or "YM" with the same "Sega Logo"aesthetic for all the YM2413+PSG tunes for SMS.

Apply that new category for the handful of (_amazing) YM2413 tunes we got.

b0t-a-bing!

The thing I don't like about [some, or all of ] these proposals is that they take nostalgia away. I get giddy feeling like I'm making a track for Sega Game Gear rather than for a ie "format the encapsulates SMS and Game Gear music" -- I think the fact that these pieces of music can potentially be played on different systems should be kept as an additional detail outside of the BotB format spec. Most BotB specs give a console-feeling that I love, and I would hate to see it migrate to some umbrella thingy.

I also like the idea that if the system can run what you made, then it's an acceptable submission. ie. it's OK for a GG submission to not use hard-pan, it's a feature not a necessity, but If you use hard-panning in your GG submission, tag it "hard-pan" or something to help categorize it.

Same with Sega Genesis -- it doesn't have to use FM since it's not a necessity for Sega Genesis music to use it -- It is a person's opinion that Genesis entries should use the FM, but it is a fact that real Sega Genesis will play the music.

I'm out, you guys can figure out the rest.

point being with formats that are so similar -- such as nsf and nsf+ -- is to separate one competitive piece from another. the nsf+ format was created because 2a0x on it's own doesn't really compete on its own versus multiple expansion chips.

Genesis/MD surely can use just the PSG chip. GG can use stereopanning; and other systems cannot. SMSj can use FM (YM2413) with its PSG; and other systems cannot.

A format is a limitation and constraint for expression and competition. Other times a format is a lack of limitation and constraint for expression and competition; being wildchip and allgear.

As long as a format is understood by BotBrs and plays well with databasing it shouldn't be an issue.

bazz, I think I can somewhat understand your sentiment, but categorization is important and must be taken into account. What if I only want to search for music that makes use of FM on the SMS? It's not easy to do. Every song under that 8-bit Sega "S" icon could be a tune playable on one of 3 or 4 different systems.

Problem is, so much is already lumped under that category, and making a distinction between the YM2413 music and music that uses just the PSG would be helpful.

Ideally, 3 categories would be most helpful, except, the ONLY difference in GG music being stereo panning, doesn't seem to be enough reason to make it it's own format. You COULD still run that same music on Genesis or SMS. Hrrrrmrrrrmlllll :/ (That's my word for that emoticon)

Now if I click on an Sgen category entry, but only hear the PSG being used, I feel like the rug has been pulled from under my feet. It is not appropriately categorized. Use the sample channel or an FM instrument, then yes. Though technically, you CAN do SMS music on a Sega Genesis.

So, I stand on my suggestion, though I can understand your point.

@marcb0t this seems to be a categorization issue beyond formats. You already decided and I agree that GameGear panning is not difference enough to create its own category.. But that means that we need a system to categorize these tracks without new formats. The simplest suggestion would be for users to appriopriately tag their tracks with new "botb-standard" tags -- but when u put the burden on the user it's going to fail.. There's no best answer IMO but I think using standardized tags is a good step forward, for example:
gg-pan
sms-fm
gen-fm
if users were encouraged to use tags like these it would help sift thru the melting pot.

I really have no intention of following this up anymore. just offering my thoughts

Well, bazz, I think I understand what you're getting at now. Actually, it's not a bad idea. Like having an extra option set to click through when submitting a track that will post your track with these subcategories.

Yeah, I don't know if it'll happen, but I think I'm warming up to your idea.

Judging from how these comments are split pretty much down the middle, I don't think what does and does not belong "is understood by BotBrs"

Admin ruling is needed. Not admin suggestion, a rule.

DoctorGentleman: structurally speaking it's a puke7 decision. it has nothing do to with sysop Strobe or strewn active and inactive admins. :)

the current decision seems to be a lack thereof; and until internal willpower via sobriety or otherwise is generated by our fearless leader there will be no changes. ;D/

I'm hoping to implement a solution before Winter Chip. :P

my 2c on this issue:

i feel as if the nsf+ exists because there are like 7 expansions for the famicom, plus not all games had the ability to use those.

any japanese sms game could use the fm and i think there were some american games that also used the fm, although in a more famicom expansion-like way. since it's just one expansion present in every japanese sms i don't see a reason to disallow it! as some people said it could spark more interest for it and thus make more tools

i don't think this makes you not want to use the sn channels, because we want to limit ourselves we're gonna do it. it's similar to making a soundtrack in a game's style, although it's sound limited rather than engine limited. besides, if i recall correctly you cannot really use the sn and the fm chip at the same time (i think an exception is the master system bios) _{edit: oh ok}

vgm format shouldn't exist. wildchip serves that purpose perfectly imo

a sn format could be created which allows sn only entries too, including stereo sn and whatnot

general fm? there are many fm chips that are different from ym2612, ym2413 and ymf262/3812, but then again, wildchip exists for that purpose alone.

in short, sms format is mono sn + fm, sn format is any sn psg chip, vgm and general fm should be kept as wildchip

these are my 2 cents on this issue.

You are mistaken. There is no hardware limitation preventing one from using both the PSG and FM simultaneously on the SMS of either region.

For what it's worth, the PSG in the Sega consoles is not 100% the same as a SN76489A chip. There's a few differences with the noise channel.

that should still count, seeing as it's a mere derivate (same features, different noise). as long as it's three voices, a noise channel and it is classified as a SN chip it should count! perhaps allow 2xSN as well?

friendly reminder: wildchip still exists. keep things simple and hardware friendly :)