What makes a good format?
BotB Academy Bulletins
 
 
218081
Level 13 Chipist
Da Flarf
 
 
post #218081 :: 2025.05.30 4:36pm
  
  OminPigeonMaster and arceus413 liēkd this
In the few months I've been on Botb, I've seen a ton of format requests. Some of stick and some of em don't.

What do you think it is that makes a new format interesting? Feel free to put your format tier lists or provide examples of formats that stuck/didn't stick and why
 
 
218082
Level 21 Mixist
MattMoney
 
 
 
post #218082 :: 2025.05.30 4:44pm
  
  retrokid104, arceus413 and Da Flarf liēkd this
  
  dobra hæitd this
In a word: demand. Talking specifically on Liveplay (since I witnessed that whole thread from start to end)-- for all the people who opposed it due to perceived inequalities when it comes to equipment cost/ quality, there was just an overwhelming mountain of people who were eager to get to play their instruments (also retrokid, who iirc stated they didnt have an instrument but wanted to see the format anyway).

I imagine it doesn't really matter what the format is or how "interesting" it is, if there's no demand then there's no demand and it's never gonna get off the ground.

Outside of that, I guess it's just a completionist's game now. Botb's been up for 20 years, most of the "obvious" tracker formats/ soundchips have already been touched upon, leaving just relatively obscure ones like Orgmaker (shoutouts arceus413).
 
 
218092
Level 25 Chipist
arceus413
 
 
 
post #218092 :: 2025.05.30 6:53pm
  
  retrokid104, MiDoRi, mirageofher and ItsDuv hæitd this
  
  pedipanol and Da Flarf liēkd this
orgmaker, pc98 and mml s tier
everything else f tier

Hi
 
 
218095
Level 13 Chipist
Da Flarf
 
 
post #218095 :: 2025.05.30 8:09pm
  
  MoxieCat, Opilion, mirageofher, Collidy, arceus413, ItsDuv, Unconventional and 10000meowcats liēkd this
guys... I know we already have like 6 NES formats... but... hear me out... triple NES. WE NEED IT. Trust.
 
 
218105
Level 13 Chipist
PlugNPlay
 
 
post #218105 :: 2025.05.31 12:04am
  
  MoxieCat, Twenty-Seven, retrokid104, Da Flarf, arceus413 and fortuna0800 liēkd this
What makes ME a good format? IF I WERE A BAD FORMAT I WOULDN'T BE SITTIN' HERE DISCUSSIN' IT WITH YOU. NOW WOULD I?
 
 
218106
Level 13 Chipist
Da Flarf
 
 
post #218106 :: 2025.05.31 7:59am
  
  nitrofurano hæitd this
  
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@PlugNPlay professionals have standards, mate
 
 
218112
Level 26 Grafxicist
big lumby
 
 
 
post #218112 :: 2025.05.31 9:13am
  
  MoxieCat, OminPigeonMaster, pedipanol, Da Flarf, arceus413, ItsDuv and SRB2er liēkd this
a good format is one that has software and hardware definitions that warrants the creation of a reasonable ruleset that limits the music to just that format. as well, it should have a reasonable amount of demand and interest to necessitate that format's creation. i'd write an essay on this but i'm about to do something in a bit so i'll come back to this with a pages-spanning something or other
 
 
218140
Level 20 Chipist
retrokid104
 
 
 
post #218140 :: 2025.05.31 1:37pm
  
  Luigi64 and Da Flarf liēkd this
  
  big lumby and funute hæitd this
does it require an archaic, not well made software? chances are it’s not a good format (looking at you ahx)
 
 
218141
Level 29 Chipist
nitrofurano
 
 
 
post #218141 :: 2025.05.31 1:40pm
@Da_Flarf questionable sometimes
 
 
218147
Level 12 XHBist
10000meowcats
 
 
post #218147 :: 2025.05.31 1:49pm
  
  luna197 liēkd this
if it has my cat in it
good kitty
 
 
218152
Level 30 Chipist
funute
 
 
 
post #218152 :: 2025.05.31 2:30pm
  
  nitrofurano liēkd this
All formats are good formats in their own little way <3
 
 
218153
Level 30 XHBist
Tex
 
 
 
What makes a good format? What makes a bad one? And what's the deal with forums banning "necroposting?" These questions have been puzzling mankind for thousands of years.
 
 
218162
Level 23 Chipist
MelonadeM
 
 
 
post #218162 :: 2025.05.31 3:49pm
  
  Da Flarf, dobra, retrokid104, Arcane Toaster, CastleNes, Blast_Brothers, Lasertooth and big lumby liēkd this
i think its a mixture of these things in reasonable proportions:

a] relative accessibility and learning curve

this is pretty simple - what tools are available to use? what restrictions does it impose on the user? how easy is it to get along with?

nsf, allgear, wildchip and gameboy for example all have relatively low bars of entry - especially the middle two, while pc98 has a not high but not low bar of entry - tools exist, and they're generally well regarded, but the popular offerings are incompatible due to a lack of supported players (for .vgm, at least)

.ahx is relatively rare to see purely because the software as retrokid said is Jank Af, however i feel formats like this is what makes botb... well, botb. wouldn't be the same site without seeing nsf and ahx in the same battle along with whatever the fuck zquest is. sorry i willr ead up later!


b] interest from this community

this one is also pretty simple - what interest is there from us? is it redundant with an already existing format?

liveplay was a clear case of a lot of people wanting it as an excuse to play their instruments - which is a good excuse, in my opinion. there were naysayers naturally but i think overall people were really interested in it.

to give an opposite example, i seem to remember there being a thread about minecraft block data - there wasn't that much interest, in part because it's a paid-for game still actively being developed, but also maybe the sphere of minecraft doesn't quite intersect botb that much ultimately?


c] this is the hard one - effort to maintain.

i'll give a few examples here, and what i would do.

exhibit 1:
let's say a new multichip tracker comes out - even better and faster developed than furnace.
year 1, they have hardware support for nsf as well as a ton of formats
year 5, they got like so many different combinations that would not have existed prior.
would it be fair to limit the feature set to what was available in year 1? it's official features, for what it's worth.
what i would do? the new features are fair game, because they are official. whatever got voted for back then was done in the sphere of what was available back then.

exhibit 2:
this multichip tracker dies, and is no longer developed. 10 years down the line, windows 12 releases, making this program obsolete as windows 12 does not run anything using the rundll32 API.
the only way to use the tracker, seeing as it was windows only, is to do so via an emulation layer, or via a virtual machine

this may introduce some audio bugs and unintended side effects that wouldn't be there if it wasn't for this turn of events?
what i would do? either retire the format, or heavily edit the article to detail best practices to get it running.

exhibit 3:
let's go back and say that this tracker did NOT die, but instead, went for a paid-for model instead similar to deflemask.
the latest versions are all behind a paywall, and the latest free version is no longer available.
what i would do? preserve the last free version like Kleeder has on various mirror. but ah. the creator of the tracker does Not want that. they threaten action. so retire it is, then right?

...and so on

although the botb team/users aren't directly responsible for maintaining the tools per se, they are responsible for maintaining how these tools are used here ultimately - i think a recent ish example might be like, fur in pokey being disallowed, and thus popularity for it mightve decreased a tad.


basically in short, for what makes a format good in -my- book:

- !!!!! variety of free tools available !!!!!

- easy to understand, hard to master

- sets itself apart from other formats, even if similar

- limits are on equal grounds

- good documentation from an expert within the community (or various!)

- community demand

- can be future proofed easily in case of software failure


look. i might be wrong about this, and i certainly feel like you could probably take some of these elements out and it'll still be fine, but i feel these elements ultimately contribute to a healthy popular format vs an unpopular one. i think the free tools one is paramount - a lot of young people will ultimately use battle of the bits as their way to express themselves creatively - like i did, and being able to access a wealth of knowledge on top of the tools themselves being free is important.

piracy, while an option, is illegal, risky in terms of computer viruses, cumbersome in terms of having to bypass activations. sometimes, it isn't even an option if the sound you want is on some hardware unit. i think stuff like munt and sc55 should be the absolute furthest in terms of this exact gray area as they require some ROMs we cannot supply obv.

i seem to have a penchant for writing walls of text as replies to forum posts. wahey!
 
 
218167
Level 26 Grafxicist
big lumby
 
 
 
post #218167 :: 2025.05.31 3:59pm
  
  MelonadeM liēkd this
ok i was actually about to write an entire mla-formatted essay on what makes a good format, but i think you hit on what i wanted to say @melonadem gg!! i think a lot of that also extends to non-music formats. for example, a] can apply to stuff like programming in java or c++, b] can apply to stuff like kid pix and mario paint (art), and c] could theoretically apply to every format, potential or otherwise
 
 
218185
Level 21 Mixist
luna197
 
 
 
post #218185 :: 2025.06.01 12:15am
  
  retrokid104 liēkd this
the inclusion of the string "byte" in it
(/j)
 
 
218208
Level 13 Chipist
Da Flarf
 
 
post #218208 :: 2025.06.01 7:49am
  
  retrokid104 liēkd this
ok, I've been a little silly in this thread, but I'm gonna actually throw in my 2 cents now. In addition to what other users have said, I've found that I enjoy formats that make/complete a "series".

For instance, having both GB and GBA formats not only help fill in the Nintendo console pipeline, but also create their own "handheld playable music" format. I'm dreaming that one day the 3ds will get a tracker that's unique enough to warrant a format, which would make the "handheld" series even more interesting, but if it doesn't that's okay.

Another series I've liked is the "look at the random crap my gameboy can do". First we got GB. Then LSDJ. Now GB studio. What's next? gameboy made pixel art format? That'd also be sick.

Ok, wow. I'd actually never thought about how central the gameboy is to a lot of stuff we do here. Thus I posit this hot take: gameboy is the main character of BOTB formats
 
 
218232
Level 20 Chipist
Stupe
 
 
 
post #218232 :: 2025.06.01 11:29am
  
  retrokid104, roz and DuccBoi liēkd this
I really feel that the format roster is very goofy and illogical, but also that that makes it weird in a charming way and shouldn't be different. Though, that makes the idea of "good/bad" formats kind of a moot point. It's just an odd, organically grown thing. There are quite a few exceedingly niche, redundant and/or bizarre programs represented, but it is cool that, since BotB more or less keeps them on life support, we get to have our own little garden of odd music challenges not found anywhere else.

Also, frequently adding in new niches would obviously get things out of hand very fast. Already there are a lot of items that rarely get any attention

I will keep selfishly plugging for a maxYMiser and/or STe format when given the chance though. Surely when it comes to the landscape of unique and well-developed trackers, maxy is one of the tallest peaks, and even DMA aside STe is a totally different sound regime from, I.E., Spectrum. That being said though, there don't seem to be too many Atari heads on here
 
 
218254
Level 22 Mixist
dobra
 
 
 
post #218254 :: 2025.06.01 3:36pm :: edit 2025.06.01 3:37pm
  
  Webriprob and big lumby liēkd this
this is mostly just responding to mattmoney and to express my own thoughts to myself but i disagree about demand being the sole factor in what makes a "good" format. i also disagree with the idea of formats being better than others because at the end of the day they're all different and incomparable. i think the only way to compare would really be comparing similar formats, ie NSF V NSFC V NSF+ or Midi V SC55 V XG.

demand is part of what gets a format to being a format alongside admin approval, but it is not an indicator of quality. gbstudio was added as a format for the recent gamejam major yet from my search it has never been asked as a format before. however most could agree gbstudio is a pretty good format, despite never being demanded or not having constant OHBs. same with other rare formats like pdf bespoke or famistudio

blah blah basically there's no such thing as a good format. only ones that you like. lame as fuck answer though so the real answer is that the only good format is remix
 
 
218255
Level 27 Mixist
aji
 
 
 
post #218255 :: 2025.06.01 3:42pm
  
  gotoandplay, Titan of Plasma, Da Flarf, Lasertooth and Prestune liēkd this
i think a format is good for botb if it has a lot of "replay value", i.e. if there's a big variety of bitpacks that could be made for it. (mariopaint is grandfathered in.)
 
 
218318
Level 30 Mixist
tennisers
 
 
 
post #218318 :: 2025.06.02 12:01pm
  
  retrokid104, Da Flarf, arceus413 and dobra liēkd this
music
 
 
218321
Level 25 Chipist
arceus413
 
 
 
post #218321 :: 2025.06.02 1:55pm
  
  tennisers liēkd this
notes that make sound
 
 
218383
Level 22 Chipist
SketchMan3
 
 
 
post #218383 :: 2025.06.03 9:10pm
  
  Da Flarf liēkd this
Accessibility
 
 
218390
Level 29 Chipist
gotoandplay
 
 
 
post #218390 :: 2025.06.04 12:38am :: edit 2025.06.04 12:47am
  
  Da Flarf, retrokid104, big lumby, damifortune and Lasertooth liēkd this
yeah ill go plus 1 for accessibility for a 'successful' format... like when pc9x01 was a mml only format it got so few entries and then bamboo and later furnace just opened up the floodgates and brought it to the unwashed masses (sorry pedipanol lol). it used to be a meme that tia didnt have a tracker too.

same goes for adlib, this used to be such a hard sell and now its got lots of Good options to choose from, and because of that, great users of it pushing the meta of the sound further

as far as Good is concerned though, thats more of a subjective one, like i might think sap is good but doesnt mean that it is widely loved or churns out loads of content. also ive been here long enough to fall in and out of love with different formats. a lot of things i have a badge for i am unlikely to revisit, for example (except for amigamod.. my precious)

edit; feel free to give the format tierlist a go here but there will be some missing ones since this was created
 
 
218396
Level 25 Chipist
YQN
 
 
 
post #218396 :: 2025.06.04 7:44am
  
  SRB2er, Da Flarf and retrokid104 liēkd this
a good format must make sense, like YYYY-MM-DD for instance
 
 
218398
Level 23 Mixist
ordinate
 
 
 
post #218398 :: 2025.06.04 9:05am
  
  retrokid104, tennisers and dobra liēkd this
  
  aji, Prestune and big lumby hæitd this
plaintext was a mistake
 
 
218404
Level 13 Chipist
Da Flarf
 
 
post #218404 :: 2025.06.04 2:02pm
  
  Lasertooth and icrawfish liēkd this
I don't think this has been mentioned yet: varied and unique tools. This can make one format feel like multiple, even if on paper the tools adhere to the same limitations. I'm going to use SNES for this example, because I think it illustrates this point really well (even tho TBH SNES is high mid-tier at best).

I used to HATE the fact that the SNES's creation tools were so varied. However, now I think it's one of the best things about the format. Every music making tool for the SNES sucks in their own unique way. We got:

SNESmod, which sounds like aldi brand GBA if you don't know what you're doing, but has great effects control due to being a tracker (also, it was the tool of choice for fantasy pants and like 80% of my favorite SPCs on the site)

MML, which is hard as heck but makes the longest SPCs and gives em great sound quality

C700, which casually runs in a daw, can take midi data and automations, has live recording, but can't be inserted into a game and freaking dies whenever you change a single parameter mid-song. there's the .smc circumvention but how dare you not let me rip your samples. I need them :(

SNSF, which is the best but can only be created by square enix because darn you.

Because of all these varied drivers, your creative process could be wildly different from one song to another. On SNESmod you're trying to think of the wildest effects you can do, and whether you're willing to take the crunchy sound or sacrifice your effect column for a clean note cut. On MML, you get to cry yourself to sleep because it's been a full day and you only created 4 measures of song (also, you're mad because you can't import .wav). On C700 you get to struggle with automation clips and midi ccs because you don't have easy access to effects. Each of these tools demands a different mindset, which is awesome, and results in some pretty diverse music for the SNES
 
 
218449
Level 9 Photographist
Santa Claus
 
 
post #218449 :: 2025.06.05 5:35pm
top 5 botb threads to read when ur fried numberha 1
 
 
218452
Level 20 Chipist
Stupe
 
 
 
post #218452 :: 2025.06.05 6:57pm
  
  Santa Claus and tennisers liēkd this
i love you santa can I have a slot cars
 
 
218521
Level 9 Photographist
Santa Claus
 
 
post #218521 :: 2025.06.07 10:27am
  
  Stupe liēkd this
love you too big guy
 
 

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