About the usage of Furnace in the Adlib format
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177802
Level 23 Mixist
SnugglyBun
 
 
 
post #177802 :: 2023.10.12 2:54pm :: edit 2023.10.12 2:57pm
  
  agargara liēkd this
I noticed that some recent Adlib entries happen to be Furnace modules, which they aren't listed in the "Tools" category of software of the format page at all although they do only use OPL1, OPL2 or OPL3.

This makes me wonder about the legality of the usage of Furnace in adlib, unless we manage to define some limitations over how it should be used in that format on the lyceum.
For example, you wouldn't usually be allowed to pair two of OPL chips; but the problem with this rule is that the original Sound Blaster Pro was a thing and it had two OPL2 chips, so maybe we make an expection with that one. Also we should make it clear that you are just not allowed to use samples in Furnace under the Adlib format, but also no other kind of soundchip; that way we can clearly define a set of rules over the usage of Furnace in Adlib if we want it to be allowed in that format.
I also wonder if overclocking OPL chips will be allowed on the Adlib format, which Furnace allows you to do easily; i'm not sure on that one.
 
 
177804
Level 21 Chipist
Blast_Brothers
 
 
 
post #177804 :: 2023.10.12 3:33pm
If s3m is accepted I don't see why .fur shouldn't be

It would be better if it was accepted more formally tho
 
 
177805
Level 31 Chipist
damifortune
 
 
 
post #177805 :: 2023.10.12 5:00pm :: edit 2023.10.14 8:48am
my opinion is still pretty much the same as when this was brought up once before - i don't see anything wrong with .fur as a filetype because it feels equivalent to submitting modules for all the other options (.mptm, .s3m, .a2m, .rad) - and disallowing .vgm seems fine in that module spirit

since that thread i've done a bunch of adlib stuff in .mptm and .fur; i've submitted .fur three times and nobody seems to have had an issue with it. it does have a clear advantage over .s3m/.mptm since you can use OPL3 4op instruments. and of course you get a high level of control over the FM parameters in comparison

i'm not hip enough to more particulars than regular OPL2 and OPL3 restrictions, but it seems easy enough to just select "Yamaha YMF262 (OPL3)" or "YM3812 (OPL2)" as your chip in furnace and go to town. obviously other additional chips would not be allowed, and i presume the "with drums" option is not allowed either, since that appears to have a totally different channel setup edit: with drums is good apparently thx

no conclusive answer was ever reached or given last time, so it's good to bring this up again. this is a confusing format
 
 
177816
Level 28 Mixist
argarak
 
 
 
post #177816 :: 2023.10.13 11:51am :: edit 2023.10.13 11:52am
  
  damifortune liēkd this
i think .fur is fine, it's almost the same scenario as with .mptm. as long as your module only uses a single OPL3 or OPL2 chip. if we have VGM export then it's fine, and we do. iirc there are some complications when you're trying to run the VGM player that's available in DOS (it's called SBVGM which you can find here: http://www.oplx.com/code/ ) where you can run out of memory because it's DOS and its memory management is just a confusing subject i know very little about heh. maybe you could work around that, i'm not sure. i use the RetroWave player executable ( https://github.com/SudoMaker/RetroWave/ ) that can play any size VGM on the RetroWave OPL3 hardwares so it's more convenient that way.

there could be an argument to be made that because some VGM files exceed some memory limit that it's not hardware compatible, but in DOS there's just too many variations in hardware that there isn't really anything we can warrant in terms of "you need to support this kind of hardware". as long as you can play it back on some OPL2 or OPL3 chip i guess you're fine.

the "with drums" option in furnace should be fair game as that's just the percussion mode in OPL3, and it seems pretty convenient that furnace provides sounds for those channels already, unlike in AT2 where you have to make your own instruments for those to use.
 
 
177822
Level 23 Chipist
MelonadeM
 
 
 
post #177822 :: 2023.10.13 3:18pm
  
  damifortune liēkd this
.mptm is OPL3 - it supports the extra waveforms, it just doesn't support the 4op pairing modes. AdlibTracker II supports pairing them, as does Furnace.

Drums mode is just a feature of all OPL chips, this shouldn't be disallowed.

Valid Furnace chip configurations should be:
- 1x YM3812 (OPL2),
- 1x YM3812 (OPL2) in drums mode,
- 1x YMF262 (OPL3), or
- 1x YMF262 (OPL3) in drums mode.
 
 
177844
Level 31 Chipist
damifortune
 
 
 
post #177844 :: 2023.10.14 8:37am
  
  MelonadeM liēkd this
good to know about drum mode, i'm definitely gonna use that next time
 
 
177845
Level 26 Chipist
pedipanol
 
 
 
post #177845 :: 2023.10.14 11:16am :: edit 2023.10.16 10:38am
  
  Kaytse, SnugglyBun, MelonadeM, cabbage drop and damifortune liēkd this
I think it might be worth including PC-x801 in this discussion. The format restrictions were estabilished when the available range of tools was much more limited, we only had PMD as a documented driver and a few converters either to PMD or S98.

.S98 is a streamed format more limited than VGM, that has a good variety of players on the PC-x801 computers because of being the first format for logging these chips specifically. But also because it's an ancient format, most windows players for it don't support features explored more recently like SSG-EG (no problems with playing them in real hardware though).

Adding VGM as an accepted format would be cool as it's a much better format than that, and would open the format for songs made in Furnace. But when it comes to hardware playability...

SBVGM also works on the PC-98 and can play OPNA VGM files but without ADPCM and up to 512kb when uncompressed (last I checked) and PC-88 can only play VGMs up to 128kb.
The only current way to playback OPNA VGMs in old hardware with less restrictions and ADPCM support is through MSX with the OPNA/Makoto cartridge, in which the memory restriction is on the hardware instead of the software.

It also share the concerns related to "what chip/hardware to be accepted", as the PC-x801 also would have the sound orchestra
(YM2203+OPL2) and 86PCM present in the 86 soundboard (that didn't support ADPCM without mods and was much more common than the Speakboard which did), but could do software mixed PCM
, of which PMD supports up to 8 channels of on top of FM, but it's not supported by the VGM format.

---

On the topic of the FUR modules, the focus of the chip formats have been on playable chiptune formats instead of modules, with modules being accepted when they can be played directly on the target hardware like the S3M example. Since furnace can render VGMs natively it also makes pointless.

At any rate I think whether to include it would need to be a whole discussion of itself. But I think the best solution would be to have the ability to upload the module file itself so it can be shared/downloaded independently, and would benefit things beyond chip formats, like Allgear for example.
 
 
182485
Level 27 Chipist
agargara
 
 
 
post #182485 :: 2024.01.08 8:26pm
  
  now_its_dark liēkd this
I am in complete favor of allowing furnace for adlib, since we already allow .mptm which is basically the same idea.

I bugged puke about it in discord so hopefully we can get an official blessing :3
 
 
182506
Level 29 Hostist
puke7
 
 
 
post #182506 :: 2024.01.08 10:45pm
  
  SnugglyBun, MelonadeM, Luigi64, damifortune, Blast_Brothers, Arcane Toaster, kilowatt64, kleeder and agargara liēkd this
I codified the file types!

Only took 15+ years to figure it out.

Good work, gang!

Feel free to update the lyceum article.
 
 

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